Roundtable Discussion #1, Part 2

At last, Part 2 of our New Avengers convo is ready! I edited out some of the completely non-topic stuff and very inside jokes, but aside from that, it's all unedited. By the way, let me apologize in advance for having to leave the conversation early. Anyway, here we go:

TheMadHooker: Can I get a vote to name them (the New Avengers) something else?
Gokitalo: Well... I'm not sure yet
TheMadHooker: why not?
TheMadHooker: Hey, next, can we talk about something that is not crap?
Gokitalo: With a couple of exceptions in plot, Bendis is writing New Avengers in a pretty traditional superhero style
TheMadHooker: She-Hulk? Thunderbolts? X-Factor?
Gokitalo: Yes yes yes, we'll talk about something you like next time
Gokitalo: Cool down
TheMadHooker: grrr
Gokitalo: brb, gonna feed George [my dog]
Gokitalo: If you see Goblin, invite him back in
Goblin4153 has entered the room.
Goblin4153: You only call it a failure because Hawleye is dead.
TheMadHooker: and that is... what do you call it?
TheMadHooker: Oh ye
TheMadHooker: s
TheMadHooker: Sucks
TheMadHooker: I think my favorite part in issue 2 is where Foggy prays to Sentry
Goblin4153: So why is New Avengers such a travesty of a book?
TheMadHooker: Name me one "Holy Crap" moment
Goblin4153: That's not what I asked.
TheMadHooker: That is a reason
TheMadHooker: This is the Avengers
TheMadHooker: It should be HUGE
TheMadHooker: and this fails
Goblin4153: Because a book doesn't make me go "Holy crap!" it's one of the worst books on the market?
TheMadHooker: If it's the Avengers, yes
Goblin4153: This is NOT the Avngers. This is the NEW Avengers.
TheMadHooker: Right
TheMadHooker: the New stands for "Crap"
Goblin4153: There is a reason it says "New."
TheMadHooker: Just like New Coke
TheMadHooker: new Avengers is teh new Coke of comics
Goblin4153: You can't give one legitimate argument for why you rail on this book other than everything you've been saying since before a single issue ever hit the stands.
TheMadHooker: Ding ding ding
TheMadHooker: Fine
TheMadHooker: How many prisoners escaped
Goblin4153: I have no idea, I'd have to go back and reread the early issues.
TheMadHooker: Let me do it for you, right quick
TheMadHooker: Issue 4
TheMadHooker: Says 42
Goblin4153: I'm assuming there is more to this argument ...
TheMadHooker: ytes
TheMadHooker: I must swing through the issues
TheMadHooker: Issue 7
TheMadHooker: there are 44
TheMadHooker: Mister Fantastic says 46
TheMadHooker: and then we're drop back down some more
TheMadHooker: In short, he can't even keep the damned number straight
TheMadHooker: and then the Sentry story may have been the worst thing in the entire run
TheMadHooker: It introduces the Illumanti, which is supposed to be big
TheMadHooker: but it just falls flat
Gokitalo: The thing with the Illuminati is that well, we never knew about them until just now
TheMadHooker: Yes
TheMadHooker: I call that lazy
Gokitalo: So when they disband, you get this, "yeah... so?" feeling
TheMadHooker: Thank you
TheMadHooker: It's like when they dropped Astra into the orginial Brotherhood of mutants
TheMadHooker: we don't care
TheMadHooker: because we never saw it
TheMadHooker: and it's lame
TheMadHooker: and now suddenly, this is a major story? (The Illuminati
TheMadHooker: And the Sentry storyline was horrendously bad
Goblin4153: Valid points, but they're hardly this huge debacle that makes the book unreadable.
TheMadHooker: No, the book does that on it's own
TheMadHooker: the entire Sentry arc was a mess and a half
TheMadHooker: It felt like a fill in arc
TheMadHooker: done by the regular crew
Gokitalo: But come on, at least comic-book Paul Jenkins was cool, right? ;-) :-P
TheMadHooker: .....
Goblin4153: Why did it feel like a fill-in?
TheMadHooker: It barely advanced the actual plot
TheMadHooker: y'know, wiht the escaped villians
TheMadHooker: which seemed like the entire thrust of the book
Goblin4153: It was the thrust of the initial arc.
TheMadHooker: And the arcs following that
Goblin4153: It was the impetus behind forming the team. Then they went after Suaron in the Savage Land.
TheMadHooker: and then issue 9 felt like a very special issue of the White Queen
TheMadHooker: With her guests... everyone else
Goblin4153: Where was it said that the book was only going to be about the breakout?
Goblin4153: The Avengers don't have a psychic.
TheMadHooker: Well, since that was the entire reason for them getting together, it would be nice if they actually followed up on it
TheMadHooker: And they do
Goblin4153: Who?
TheMadHooker: but since we try not to use many old Avengers, it doesn't matter
TheMadHooker: Moondragon
Goblin4153: Sorry, my mistake. The New Avengers don't have any psychics.
TheMadHooker: And they need to be friggin' called something else
TheMadHooker: this is not the Avengers
TheMadHooker: And unless they've changed the word "new" to mean "shit" this doesn't qualify
TheMadHooker: This is easily the WORST run on the Avengers since issue 300ish
TheMadHooker: This makes Chuck Austen look good
Gokitalo: (I'll reply in just a sec)
TheMadHooker: End of issue 10. Namor: Nothing else we need to discuss? Tony: No.
TheMadHooker: Me: OH GOSH! He lied to a bunch of people! Who have been together for three issues,
TheMadHooker: OH SNAP!
Goblin4153: You still haven't provided a reason for this bile and hatred aside from a few minor continuity glitches.
Gokitalo: The Slug lives
Gokitalo: That is not minor
Gokitalo: :-P
TheMadHooker: He actually covered that
TheMadHooker: somewhat
TheMadHooker: I'll give him that
Gokitalo: I do kind of think the New Avengers aren't pursuing the escaped convicts as actively as they could
TheMadHooker: here we go. Those glitches, ifne, we'll call them minor.
TheMadHooker: They aren't going after the escaped cons.
TheMadHooker: They aren't working together
Gokitalo: I know it's common superhero tradition to wait for the bad guys to strike first
TheMadHooker: Eleven issues in and we're still forming the team
Gokitalo: But still, they did say they wanted to follow up on things
TheMadHooker: We take a special detour to introduce a bad concept
Goblin4153: They are. Hell, you can place just as much if not more blame on the editor for the breakout errors. The Sentry issue isn't a problem, just something that wasn't your thing.
TheMadHooker: and then we get two issues devoted mainly to the White Queen
TheMadHooker: But you are asking for reasons for the hatred
TheMadHooker: I am giving them
TheMadHooker: For you to just say "that it wasn't your thing" doesn't take back the fact that this is where the anger comes from
Goblin4153: I'd actually blame the 11-issue deal on marketing. It only seemed like they were forming the team because they kept whoring out the one image with Ronin on it.
TheMadHooker: And they had a hard time fighting NINJAS!
TheMadHooker: NINJAS!
TheMadHooker: The AVENGERS HAD A HARD TIME FIGHTING NINJAS!
TheMadHooker: Iron Man could've and should've taken them out on his own with no problem
Goblin4153: Give credit where creidt is due - this is the Hand, not some jerkwate ninjas.
Goblin4153: They're friggin' immortal.
TheMadHooker: they are ninjas vs. the Avengers
TheMadHooker: and it went on for what?
Goblin4153: IMMORTAL ninjas. They can't die.
TheMadHooker: three issues?
Gokitalo: They didn't have a hard time fighting ninjas
TheMadHooker: and then there was the big reveal of who Ronin was
TheMadHooker: It took them three issues
Gokitalo: The ninjas retreated twice
TheMadHooker: does it friggin' matter
TheMadHooker: Why did they retreat?
TheMadHooker: And then Iron Man's rationale was lame
Gokitalo: As for Ronin, I won't fault Bendis since for shilling his Daredevil work because well, he never used her on Daredevil
TheMadHooker: "You were all bouncing in front of me."
TheMadHooker: No, I will blame him
Goblin4153: What "took them" three issues? Because Bendis didn't tell you in the first page who Ronin was it "took them" three issues? It's not like that was the only story of the arc, it was a piece of it.
TheMadHooker: "Who is Ronin?"
TheMadHooker: Let me toss this out
TheMadHooker: well, it's a woman with black hair
TheMadHooker: we see Captain America talking about it
TheMadHooker: sorry, to her
Goblin4153: I blame the artist more for the Ronin deal, anyway. I don't care if it's Echo, I care that the artist deliberately made her look like a guy.
TheMadHooker: so all the damned hints. "Maybe it's SHang Chi? Iron Fist? OH NOES! The Taskmaster!
TheMadHooker: Guess what, the artist is part of the book
TheMadHooker: the editors are part of the book
TheMadHooker: you can blame them all you want, but they are still part of the book
TheMadHooker: which is why the BOOK is not any good
Gokitalo: I heard a podcast where Bendis was interviewed
Goblin4153: Yes, well, until this point your hatred has always been pointed squarey at Bendis.
Gokitalo: And in later issues, it will be revealed why Ronin was made to look like a man
TheMadHooker: That's because he's the easiest one to attack
TheMadHooker: But in this case, it shows the entire book is falling apart
TheMadHooker: I'm not going to say anyhting about ronin's look
Gokitalo: Guys, definitely keep going. I gotta eat, but I'll be back afterwards
TheMadHooker: enough padding can do a lot
Goblin4153: Rotating artists. You can't find fault with Steve McNiven or Frank Cho.
TheMadHooker: but in this case, the big tease that it might be Taskmaster is useless because we know it's a woman
TheMadHooker: and the fact that is Echo is underwhelming
TheMadHooker: "It's.... Uncle Bob... from Speed Buggy? This si the worst episode of Scooby Doo ever!"
Goblin4153: I basically ignore marketings teases nowadays anyway. That whole thing's gone way too far with its "events" in recent years.
TheMadHooker: Why do we have a rotating artist at all?
TheMadHooker: Even ignoring it, you expect it to be someone good
Goblin4153: That's an industry-wide problem, hardly NA specific.
Goblin4153: McNiven and Cho are fantastic!
Goblin4153: Copiel's a little dark and sketchy for my tastes.
TheMadHooker: Out of the entire book
TheMadHooker: the series I have read
TheMadHooker: the only thing that interests me at all is the Spider-Woman working for both sides thing
TheMadHooker: Everything else failed utterly
Goblin4153: See, I'm not fawning over the book because I don't think it's a top ten book, but I seriously don't see how it "fails utterly."
TheMadHooker: thne you won't agree with me
Goblin4153: Does it have its problems? Of course. but that doesn't mean it's totally worthless.
TheMadHooker: I feel it is
Goblin4153: Then this debate is essentially pointless.
TheMadHooker: Of course
TheMadHooker: But I have given my reasons
TheMadHooker: most debate is
TheMadHooker: you will rarely make the other guy agree with you
Goblin4153: Bah! Debate is the attempt to change someone's mind.
Goblin4153: If you always fail ... it just means you suck at it.
TheMadHooker: No, it's the attempt tochange other people's minds
TheMadHooker: can we talk about something good?